Even Iraqis Think The US Has Failed

August 18, 2007 at 5:21 pm | Posted in American politics, Iraq | 12 Comments

Read it yourself. By Allawi. He kinda knows what’s going on in Iraq these days.

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  1. looks like we might be leaving sooner rather than later if our military commanders get their way…

    “Senior military commanders have told the Government that Britain can achieve “nothing more” in south-east Iraq, and that the 5,500 British troops still deployed there should move towards withdrawal without further delay.

    Last month Gordon Brown said after meeting George Bush at Camp David that the decision to hand over security in Basra province – the last of the four held by the British – “will be made on the military advice of our commanders on the ground”. He added: “Whatever happens, we will make a full statement to Parliament when it returns [in October].”

    Two generals told The Independent on Sunday last week that the military advice given to the Prime Minister was, “We’ve done what we can in the south [of Iraq]”. Commanders want to hand over Basra Palace – where 500 British troops are subjected to up to 60 rocket and mortar strikes a day, and resupply convoys have been described as “nightly suicide missions” – by the end of August. The withdrawal of 500 soldiers has already been announced by the Government. The Army is drawing up plans to “reposture” the 5,000 that will be left at Basra airport, and aims to bring the bulk of them home in the next few months”.
    more…

    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2876541.ece

  2. Whoa whoa whoa! Hold your horses! The article says nothing about the US being “defeated.” In fact, the article doesn’t even blame the US for the majority of the problems in Iraq! It blames the Maliki government! And of the US, it says:

    “Iraq must be a full partner with the United States in the development of a security plan that leads to the withdrawal of the majority of U.S. forces over the next two years, and that, before then, gradually and substantially reduces the U.S. combat role. The United States is indispensable to peace and security in Iraq and the greater Middle East. But we owe it to America — and, more important, to ourselves — to start solving our own problems. This will not happen as long as the present government is in power.”

    I think you’re putting words in this guy’s mouth! Far from saying that the US has “failed” and that the only thing we can do is get out, he sees the current situation of US involvement as ongoing and is looking for practical solutions!

    I fail to see how a defeatist attitude helps either the United States or the Iraqi people! Yes, we need to be realistic, and we need to recognize past failures, but that doesn’t mean that there haven’t been past successes, or that there won’t be future successes!

    Yes, we need to eventually withdraw from Iraq, but not in a rout! I appreciate those who are realistic, but I absolutely do not appreciate those who come across as reveling in the idea of a US “defeat!”

    What does a “defeat” look like, anyway? It might just be as difficult to define a “defeat” as it is to define a “victory!”

    I can tell you what a “defeat” would look like. It would look like a regional war between Turkish, Saudi, and Iranian forces, with millions of Iraqis dead from massive sectarian genocide and hundreds of new terrorist camps peppered across the region. That’s what I fear from a power vacuum of a misguided US withdrawal.

  3. onelowerlight,

    It would look like a regional war between Turkish, Saudi, and Iranian forces, with millions of Iraqis dead from massive sectarian genocide and hundreds of new terrorist camps peppered across the region.

    Then we are already defeated. These countries are already participating in this very thing you describe, except of course that it isn’t millions of Iraqis dead, but hundreds of thousands.

    And who is reveling in defeat? Certainly not me. I’m trying to show how ridiculous our current administration is, how poor their spin is, and how much so many Americans are still willing to take of this crap. I guess I really do have high standards for this country of mine.

  4. So the alternative the Democrats are offering is a defeat 100 times worse than the setbacks we are now experiencing, since if we pulled out now and left a power vacuum in the region, we would be praying for the level of violence to die down to what it is now? When I’m talking about defeat, I’m talking about violence an order of magnitude worse than what we’re now experiencing. Things can definitely get a lot worse, but sometimes I get very frustrated because the liberals don’t seem to realize that.

    Anti-Bush criticism is easy to find and easy to write, and it may even be correct some of the time, but finding solutions to global problems is much more worthwhile.

  5. So the alternative the Democrats are offering is a defeat 100 times worse than the setbacks we are now experiencing, since if we pulled out now and left a power vacuum in the region, we would be praying for the level of violence to die down to what it is now? Things can definitely get a lot worse, but sometimes I get very frustrated because the liberals don’t seem to realize that.

    Anti-Bush criticism is easy to find and easy to write, and it may even be correct some of the time, but finding solutions to global problems is much more worthwhile.

  6. onelowerlight,

    Liberals do actually understand and realize that it will most likely get worse if we leave. I think that liberals are trying to understand if conservatives realize that staying won’t actually help, won’t actually get it better, because WE ARE the problem.

    Take a look, for example, at this latest report about Iraqis fuming over the deaths of innocents killed by Americans. The Americans deny any civilians were killed, but see it doesn’t matter what the Americans say. If the Iraqis believe it, it is perceptually true, and as such yet another stake in the heart of our mission. Just what the hell are we doing killing Iraqis? What do we hope to accomplish by this? Is it images like the one in the link?

    If a foreign occupying force killed some of your relatives, onelowerlight, just how would YOU respond? I’ll tell you that for me, I would be quite vicious in retaliation to a foreign occupier who killed members of my family. Why would Iraqis be any different?

    Do Republicans realize these things?

  7. “If a foreign occupying force killed some of your relatives, onelowerlight, just how would YOU respond? I’ll tell you that for me, I would be quite vicious in retaliation to a foreign occupier who killed members of my family. Why would Iraqis be any different?”

    I hope I’d be Christlike enough to come to a place of forgiveness before hatred and revenge destroyed my life.

  8. Have you forgiven Osama Bin Laden and his bunch for attacking us?

  9. Revenge and self defense are two different things. My desire to eliminate OBL as a threat is not out of revenge.

  10. But does Bin Laden need to be “eliminated” in order to remove his threat? Or could he merely be arrested and his threat therefore removed? I’m just wondering why we need to resort to violence to defend ourselves. There really are other means besides launching missiles at our “enemies.”

  11. If we can arrest him, lets do it.

    But this isn’t simply a case for interpol. This is a 21st century war. An asymetrical war against an organization, not a sovereign state, but a war nonetheless.

    That’s the question of our age: do we treat the jihadist enemy as enemy soldiers or civil criminals? I’m no advocate of violating the Geneva conventions, but I do think that our response needs to acknowledge the enemy as a military threat.

    That means that military force is one legitimate way of eliminating the threat, though it may not always be the most efficient, desirable, or (in all cases) justifiable. We need to figure out a response that balances treating the jihadists as militants or criminals, without throwing one completely out the window, because there are valid concerns on both sides.

  12. why is it a “war?” Can you really have a “war” with non-state actors? What’s the point, especially when your actions cause the deaths of many innocent civilians. (Take for example the most infamous incident—the bombing of the wedding party in Afghanistan in 2002

    The US planes – including a B-52 bomber and an AC-130 helicopter gunship – dropped seven 2,000lb bombs, he added.

    His unapologetic tone, after one of the worst blunders of the US-led coalition’s nine-month war in Afghanistan will infuriate locals, who said most of the dead were women and children. At least 40 others were injured…
    …The Afghan foreign minister, Abdullah Abdullah, said that 40 people, all civilians, had died, and that a further 100 were wounded.

    “In one village, there was a wedding party… a whole family of 25 people. No single person was left alive. This is the extent of the damage,” he said.

    Most Americans have forgotten that incident. But you can be certain Afghans have not forgotten it).

    Our enemy is not a military threat. The reason why is because our enemy does not have anywhere near the capability to actually do our nation critical harm. What I mean by that is that these non-state actors do not have the power to coerce us into their way of thinking. They do not have the power of a state. They are beneath the state, not along side a state. As such, in your bucket of tools, one tool you do not need is the military. Because the military is designed to combat with state actors. When you begin using the military, you are playing on a completely different field than the ones used by terrorists. When you don’t play on the same field, you’re not going to succeed.

    The most efficient counter to terrorism is NOT military action.


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